Ransome and the world

It would be interesting to hear how Arthur Ransome is viewed in different parts of the world, at least where we have members

Hi, it certainly would!

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Previously Anonymous wrote:

It would be interesting to hear how Arthur Ransome is viewed in different parts of the world, at least where we have members

This does sound like an interesting area for discussion to me, too. There must be differences and similarities in the way that different cultures "see" any author's work, including Ransome's, and it would be fascinating to know more about people's views on these. I'm not aware of any detailed discussion, debate or research on this before, so if there has been, hopefully someone will put me right on that! If not, it sounds like an area that might repay some thought: perhaps as a friendly debate around the forum "camp fire"; perhaps as an article for Mixed Moss or some extra content for the website; perhaps (who knows?) even as an interesting subject on which to base a dissertation or a thesis. 

May I ask whereabouts in the world you come from yourself? Is it the UK, or somewhere else? I'm in the North of England myself.

Of course, there have been articles published in Mixed Moss and Signals by members from different parts of the world, and sometimes these give indications how people approach AR. It's often interesting to hear how some of our Austars friends put a "Secret Water" interpretation onto the wetlands where they hold Corroborees, for instance, and I remember seeing an article by Japanese members about their study of Beckfoot, where they'd tried to collate all of the fictional descriptions into a single model.

There must be a lot in the SA books for people from different backgrounds to puzzle over. And these days, I suppose that puzzlement might extend to younger generations here in the UK, as the world around us changes.

Are some of the SA books more "accessible" in different parts of the world than others? I imagine that Missee Lee might seem particularly obscure, given its geopolitical background? This springs to my mind because I noticed recently on Robert Thompson's website that the fist Czech translation of ML was published in 2000. I do wonder how today's Czech readers interpret all of the plot threads relating to Cambridge and Chinese-British relationships?    

 

 

 

 

I did not mean to post anonymous, just had a little problem logging in. Gareth kindly sorted this out.

I am currently the U.S. coordinator for TARS, but was born in England, and and lived near Brighton for many years before migrating to the U.S., where I have lived for 30 years.

I therefore am aware of both AR worlds as it were, I was amazed to find AR had a following at all in the US, However his books are readily available here from a number of sources, not widely read but I get calls from quite a few people who have found them.

The biggest problem is the size of the country which makes getting together with other members very difficult.

I was delighted to attend the IAGM at Falmouth this year something I had not previously been able to do and to meet such wonderful friends of AR.

Hopefully we can get many responses from our other AR outposts

Yes, I can see that the geographical separation must have a big effect. I've always had the impression that Austars have an interesting "events" side, because we tend to hear of their get togethers. But I think it is the case that many Australian TARS members simply can't get to them, whether they want to, or not. It is quite difficult here in the UK to conceive of the distances between Perth and Sydney or Melbourne, for example, or those in the USA or Canada. (Having said that, it is often the case in the UK that our overcrowded transport system means places are a lot further apart in time than you'd expect they should be when judging by miles).

Fo some reason this reminds me of the bit in Coot Club (or is it The Big Six?), where the Ds are telling the Death & Glories about the Lake District, and they - never having been out of Norfolk - are trying to imagine what the mountains are like. I guess we're all in that position in a way, trying to imagine how other people see Ransome and his works from their experiences and perspectives?

 

To follow on from Geraint's post, I would like to draw Members' attention to our website at: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ransome On that site you may read a PDF copy of the previous issue of our newsletter: Furthest South. (The current issue is only available to AusTARS members) There are a number of other pages of interest to international TARS members too. This post will probably show as "Anonymous". This is because I cannot find anywhere on the Forum page where I am composing this to allow me to log in. John Giddy (past Treasurer and Webmaster of AusTARS)

Thanks, John. It's probably worth mentioning that there's a permanent link to the AusTARS site from this site's TARS Overseas page as well. That also offers links to information about TARSUS, and could easily include more information about TARS and its members in other parts of the world.

The way the TARS site is designed, any TARS member can create content: from news items to information about forthcoming TARS events, to individual pages, to whole sections of site on particular aspects of Ransome or TARS. So if there are areas or subject you're particularly interested in that aren't being developed, the answer could lie in your own keyboard.

Gareth's helpfully put up a short tutorial about this, currently accessible through the announcements section on the home page (I think links to some of the Plone online tutorials will follw in due course).   

Hi Geraint I was aware of the link on the TARS Overseas page, but that didn't mention anything about the availability of recent local newsletters, which give a good indication of the sort of activities which are run in Australia. This was in answer to your musings on our activities and the difficulty many AusTARS have in attending them. Our indefatigable Activities Organiser, Jan Allen is intending to get to some of the further-flung States in the near future to get them "revved up" to arrange their own activities.

(who are you??)

Previously Anonymous wrote:

Hi Geraint I was aware of the link on the TARS Overseas page, but that didn't mention anything about the availability of recent local newsletters, which give a good indication of the sort of activities which are run in Australia. This was in answer to your musings on our activities and the difficulty many AusTARS have in attending them. Our indefatigable Activities Organiser, Jan Allen is intending to get to some of the further-flung States in the near future to get them "revved up" to arrange their own activities.

 

Adam Quinan from Toronto here. I tried a few years ago to get a regular annual meeting going in southern Ontario but eventually after a few years it lapsed because it was a lot of work and the numbers never grew to the point where it became possible to pass on the effort to other people. It was gebnerally the same two or three families. We had some visitors from far flung parts, including someone from Calgary who happened to be in the area for one and someone from BC who was around for another.

Sorry Gareth !

I thought I was logged in, but obviously wasn't.

T'was I:  John Giddy,  who replied to Geraint's pointer to the TARS Overseas page.

No problem, I only ask so I can add your name to the post .. [fixed above]

Previously John Giddy wrote:

Sorry Gareth !

I thought I was logged in, but obviously wasn't.

T'was I:  John Giddy,  who replied to Geraint's pointer to the TARS Overseas page.

 

The difference in readings is not only internatonal, but that of time. We non-UK members are seeing a foreign country, but we're all seeing a foreign country in a way- Swallows and Amazons is set 70 years ago- which makes the world a very different place, even for those readers living in the Lakes or the Broads.

Previously John Giddy wrote:

Hi Geraint I was aware of the link on the TARS Overseas page, but that didn't mention anything about the availability of recent local newsletters, which give a good indication of the sort of activities which are run in Australia. This was in answer to your musings on our activities and the difficulty many AusTARS have in attending them. Our indefatigable Activities Organiser, Jan Allen is intending to get to some of the further-flung States in the near future to get them "revved up" to arrange their own activities.

Hi John. Thanks, I understand now. You're certainly right about Furthest South, it really does give good accounts of the activities you get up to in AusTARS.

I hope Jan's "Grand Tour" goes really well, too.   

Previously Anonymous wrote:

The difference in readings is not only internatonal, but that of time. We non-UK members are seeing a foreign country, but we're all seeing a foreign country in a way- Swallows and Amazons is set 70 years ago- which makes the world a very different place, even for those readers living in the Lakes or the Broads.

I'm sure you are right. I first read the SA series 35 years ago, ie half way back to the time they were written. My memory of doing so then is that significant parts of AR's fictional world still seemed recognisable in the world around me. But in the last 35 years there have been an awful lot of fundemental changes: mobile phones, computers, the internet, satellite TV (or even colour TV, or even TV at all). Tents have changed from triangular designs that outwardly looked like the S&A versions to hi-tech hi-visibility domes; sailing dinghies have turned from wooden hulls and sails that looked vaguely like canvas to plastic dishes and transparent "foils". And I'm sure the list goes on...

Do people have any thoughts on how this kind of change in perspective can or should be approached, when considering how best to offer AR and the SA books to new generations of readers? (Or should it just be ignored?)

     

I read fantasy and science fiction (among other things!) and different worlds are a large part of that attraction. Perhaps that's the way to introduce it.

Previously Geraint Lewis wrote:

Do people have any thoughts on how this kind of change in perspective can or should be approached, when considering how best to offer AR and the SA books to new generations of readers? (Or should it just be ignored?)

     

That's intriguing: I presume you mean that  readers accept an increased need to "suspend disbelief" when reading fantasy or science fiction? (Or I suppose you could redefine that as the need to use their imaginations more?). ie they accept that the world isn't quite as they know it, but are happy with that - and even seek the opportunity to escape into something different.

The Swallows and Amazons books aren't generally fantasy or science fiction (although we could argue that Peter Duck and Missee Lee have elements of the former). But I suppose the ability to indulge in a "different" world does apply to reading historical novels. Maybe the time is coming to "see" the S&A series in that light, rather than as events set in a contemporaneously recognisable world?

With the Ransome stories being available in various other languages, I find that the concept of a translator's results can put a different flavor to the story. I have wondered what the result would be to take a non-English translation, then to get someone that is not familiar with the Ransome series at all to translate that back into English, then to compare these two English versions to see how concepts have changed or shifted according to the separate interpretations of the two translators involved. Certain expressions that Nancy uses would certainly be an item to compare in the two versions. To try to imagine how "shiver my timbers" gets shifted when phrased in say, Japanese, then to take that, and try to come up with an English equivalent of the Japanese version, would leave a result that is very likely far from the original. As an American, who is reportedly known to speak what I call English, there are those differences already in the language Ransome wrote in and what I am used to hearing. While I can read that original version, there are some items that become a puzzle when I try to make an American interpretation, and this can lead to misunderstandings, or just leave me in the dark as to what it really means. So in a way, even though Ransome's English is more like my own language (as compared to how a Japanese would see it) it is still subject to my interpretations and therefore shifts in meaning. His stories are about a foreign country (foreign to me anyway), in another time (between the wars) doing things according to quite different customs. Perhaps therein lies the fascination. My whole association with these Ransome books has been quite an educational experiance. How else could I have known what sister hooks are? (Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA)

Previously Geraint Lewis wrote:

Previously John Giddy wrote:

Hi Geraint I was aware of the link on the TARS Overseas page, but that didn't mention anything about the availability of recent local newsletters, which give a good indication of the sort of activities which are run in Australia. This was in answer to your musings on our activities and the difficulty many AusTARS have in attending them. Our indefatigable Activities Organiser, Jan Allen is intending to get to some of the further-flung States in the near future to get them "revved up" to arrange their own activities.

Hi John. Thanks, I understand now. You're certainly right about Furthest South, it really does give good accounts of the activities you get up to in AusTARS.

I hope Jan's "Grand Tour" goes really well, too.  

Hi Geraint,  as I write, Jan is in Perth [and other parts of south-western Western Australia.]  This is about 4,500Km from Melbourne. She'll be meeting all the AusTARS that she can while there and inspiring them.  She has just returned from a coroborree at an island just south of Brisbane, Queensland, which is 1600Km north of Melbourne, where another keen member flew 1200Km south to join in.  See the 'Recent Activities ' page of our website for a brief account of this.  Jan is an absolute treasure, and has accurately been called the 'human dynamo'.

David.

I find that Ar is not well-known in Australia, although members of the sailing fraternity tend to be more aware of him than most others.  As I am sure happens elsewhere, awareness tends to run down through families, from APs to children.  Children's books seem to have a lot more 'thud and blunder' in them now, and I don't think that we have to go any further than the 'Harry Potter' series for an example of that.  There is a wealth of local children's literature with which local kids can easily identify. Lakes here tend to be man-made reservoirs rather than natural features.  Only some of these are accessible for recreation, but 12 consecutive years of drought have drained most of them.  We have now children of S&A age who have never known anything other than drought.  My ex-wife had never seen snow until after we were married, and the thought of a lake that you could skate on is bizarre!  In many ways for Australian children, the books are set in a foreign world.  I don't think that this stops children from enjoying them, but it does hinder 'identification with them'

David.

Hi David,

I'm glad to hear Jan's tour is going well. Those distances do take some getting used to for those of us used to living in the UK. I'll be sure to look up the corroboree report too.

Previously David Bamford wrote:

Hi Geraint,  as I write, Jan is in Perth [and other parts of south-western Western Australia.]  This is about 4,500Km from Melbourne. She'll be meeting all the AusTARS that she can while there and inspiring them.  She has just returned from a coroborree at an island just south of Brisbane, Queensland, which is 1600Km north of Melbourne, where another keen member flew 1200Km south to join in.  See the 'Recent Activities ' page of our website for a brief account of this.  Jan is an absolute treasure, and has accurately been called the 'human dynamo'.

David.

 

This sounds like another interesting opportunity for exploration (aka research). I wonder if anyone has ever done a systematic study like that for AR's work (or for any other author's, for that matter)? I recall one or two talks and articles in Mixed Moss, where the speakers and authors have commented on the way that translators have tried to interpret AR's words and ideas, including occasional alterations to the characters' names. If I recall correctly, "Uncle Jim" becomes "L'Oncle Paul" in French for instance. But it would be going one step further to get an independent translation back into English by someone unfamiliar with the original. I wonder what "L'Oncle Paul" would become in that instance? Probably a pretty straight forward "Uncle Paul", as the name is fairly common in the UK.  

Previously Edwin M Kiser wrote:

 I have wondered what the result would be to take a non-English translation, then to get someone that is not familiar with the Ransome series at all to translate that back into English, then to compare these two English versions to see how concepts have changed or shifted according to the separate interpretations of the two translators involved.

Previously Geraint Lewis wrote:

But I suppose the ability to indulge in a "different" world does apply to reading historical novels. Maybe the time is coming to "see" the S&A series in that light, rather than as events set in a contemporaneously recognisable world?

 

 

Yes, exactly. I'm thinking that new (adult)readers of SA may be attracted by the difference- and the popularity of the works of Patrick O'Brian and Georgette Heyer show that that difference can be attractive. Children, depending on what they are looking for, may be either attracted- hey, look how different- or repelled- but these people aren't like me at all! Claiming that the S & A world is the current world, even if it was for us, will more likely lose us child readers than gain them.

Hi, if you don't have a login / are not a member, please can you include your name in your postings ...

Thank ..   [or if you do, let me know and I'll re-tag your message)

Previously Anonymous wrote:

Yes, exactly. I'm thinking that new (adult)readers of SA may be attracted by the difference- and the popularity of the works of Patrick O'Brian and Georgette Heyer show that that difference can be attractive. Children, depending on what they are looking for, may be either attracted- hey, look how different- or repelled- but these people aren't like me at all! Claiming that the S & A world is the current world, even if it was for us, will more likely lose us child readers than gain them.

 

As a linguist, I love Ed's idea of the translation back into English by someone with no knowledge of the books.  That really would be fascinating.

 

I wonder how this idea could best be progressed in practical terms? Would a "test re-translation" of a reasonably short passage from one of the books show interesting or significant results?

If so, does anybody have any suggestions as to a suitable "test" passage, and why?    

Previously Pippa wrote:

As a linguist, I love Ed's idea of the translation back into English by someone with no knowledge of the books.  That really would be fascinating.

 

 

What about chapter X of S&A "The Parley"?  This would be good because it's the first time the Swallows and Amazons speak to each other and introduce themselves, talking about the island and Captain Flint too. 

The "test re-translation" could be from any language back to English. 

 

Hi Pippa

Yes, I could see that working. There might be another benefit, insofar as I think Swallows and Amazons has been translated into a fair number of other languages. So in theory you could try "re-translating" from several of them to see how widely each "re-translation" varies, in addition to how far they vary from the original English.

I suppose that there are any number of possible passages to choose. Just now - and just because it happens to have sprung to mind - I think Picts and Martyrs Chapter 21 might be interesting. That's the scene where Nancy and Peggy visit the others on the houseboat to discuss the "burglary". It would be quite interesting to see whether the "re-translation" catches all the nuances of Timothy's bewildered reactions.

Previously Pippa wrote:

What about chapter X of S&A "The Parley"?  This would be good because it's the first time the Swallows and Amazons speak to each other and introduce themselves, talking about the island and Captain Flint too. 

The "test re-translation" could be from any language back to English. 

 

 

As you will see in the forthcomong Mixed Moss, next year's Amazon Publication will be by Robert Thompson about the foreign translations of "The Twelve". He will certainly cover the question of different national approaches to the stories.

I hadn't intended this to be "Anonymous", nor to include typos. But there is something counter-intuitive about this forum. It didn't ask me to logon until <i>after</i> I had sent the item, nor did it give me a chance to check the posting with a test version.
I have logged on already now, but just in case, I am Alan Hakim.
Previously Anonymous wrote:

As you will see in the forthcoming Mixed Moss, next year's Amazon Publication will be by Robert Thompson about the foreign translations of "The Twelve". He will certainly cover the question of different national approaches to the stories.